No counter for health stacking

Discussion in 'Nerfs and Buffs' started by Ranger74352, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    Heroes of Order & Chaos has a rather serious balance issue that is causing the game to be extremely unpleasant to play, when other players take advantage of this balance issue. The issue I am speaking of is, of course, "health stacking". The process whereby one buys several items that provide max health increases, until one becomes unkillable, because there is no way to deal with that much health. This is the same issue that necessitated the nerfing of the Stirring Soul of the Dragons and, while the nerf to the item did help, the root of the problem still remains. All one needs is one or two damage items, and then a lot of health, in order to become impossible to take on alone. Other MOBAs have found solutions to this problem, in the form of items that do damage based on a target's max health, but HOC still does not have a way to counter health stacking. As a result, when players start building a lot of health on their heroes, they become impossible to stop, because there are no offensive items that allow one to get through that much health. Meanwhile, they still have just enough damage to kill you. The only way to deal with it is to start stacking health yourself. And if something is so strong that the only way to beat it is to use it as well, then it is, by definition, imbalanced. There are a small number of heroes in the game who have %max health damage built into their kits, but one shouldn't be forced to only pick certain heroes, just to counter in-game items.

    The solution to this problem is really quite simple: all that Gameloft would need to do would be to add items for both physical and magical heroes that would allow them to deal max health damage. I have already taken the liberty of coming up with some ideas that could serve as a starting point for the design of these items:

    •Physical %Max Health Item:
    -40% attack speed
    -Passive (Unique): When attacking a hero with over 600 more max health than you, your attacks will deal additional physical damage equal to 5% of the target's max health, and have 5% HP Harvest.
    *Cost: 3000 Gold
    *Build: Wings of Paradise + 1600 Gold

    •Magical %Max Health Item:
    -50 Magical attack
    -Passive (Unique): When your spells hit heroes with over 600 more max health than you, they will take additional magical damage equal to 10% of their max health, and your cooldowns will be reduced by 2 seconds. AoE spells apply 50% of these effects, but DoT spells cannot apply these effects at all.
    *Cost: 3000 Gold
    *Build: Brawler's Lament + 1450 Gold

    The goal with these items is to make them a viable way to deal with enemies who have built massive amounts of health, but ensure that they will not be so strong as to be always worth getting. That's why their unique passives do not apply to enemies unless they have over 600 max health more than you, meaning that they will not be as valuable against enemies who have no defensive items, or who only have one defensive item. These designs can, of course, be modified, if necessary, in order to ensure that the items will be properly balanced, but Gameloft absolutely MUST introduce some type of %max health items into the game, in order to provide players with a way to counter the very oppressive health stacking meta, which is currently plaguing the game. There is no way to counter it right now, and I am not the only player who has noticed the problem. Nearly everyone I've talked to online, about this issue, agrees that it is an immediate problem, and is in need of resolution. So, I implore you, Gameloft, on behalf of the dedicated player base of HOC, please do something to solve the health stacking issue, be it my solution, or another.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  2. ONYX

    ONYX Well-Known Member

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    What's stopping you from stacking hp?
     
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  3. atmsx

    atmsx Member

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    Not sure how facing an opponent with more health makes you die?

    Isn't it more accurate to be like this?
    "The issue I am speaking of is, of course, "damage stacking". The process whereby one buys several items that provide max damage increases, until one becomes unkillable, because there is no way to deal with that much damage."

    Because you don't die from your opponent having a lot of health. You die from your opponent doing damage to you where you end up dieing faster either because you lack damage or you lack health. You obviously need both to optimize your survival and potential damage output. The only reason why you would die is if you somehow think that attacking an opponent better equipped than you in a fair fight somehow results in you automatically wining. If you aren't as well equipped, you need a strategy to work with to win obviously... Unless straight up attack and bash with no kiting, ganking, or tactics at all is the best way to win. Having no health but massive damage with a lot of stuns will result in you winning in a sudden burst of dps with no counter. You cannot do this with "massive health". In fact, having massive health greatly limits the kinds of surprises you can pull off since all you can really do is walk around, get hit, and tickle them back. Oh yeah, if they got a healer, you will never damage more than they can heal so good luck with that massive health stack.

    If building health is a plague, then so must be building damage and thus, we have now gotten rid of health and damage items...
     
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  4. Sadowmancer

    Sadowmancer Controller of Misery

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    When you said when a hero has a lot of health they become unkillable, that is so false. Any adc with pierce and jade can burn through heal quickly as well as mages with pierce and burst. End of discussion.

    Edit: those items you recommended will make the game even more unbalanced. Before saying the game is unbalanced think of items that will not make it even more unbalanced. Like really if a hero has 600 more hp you deal 5% more damage that is ridiculously op. It should never be an item because it's basically a stronger version of frost's passive.
     
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  5. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    Aug 7, 2015
    Did you not read the full post? You shouldn't have to stack health just to deal with people who stack health. If the only way to deal with something is to copy it, then it is, by definition, imbalanced.
     
  6. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    To a certain extent, you're right. Pure health stacking won't win games. The problem is when players build one or two damage items, and then start stacking health. They have just enough damage to kill people reasonably quickly, but it's impossible to kill them before they kill you, because they have so much health, and there's no way to get through it.
     
  7. Sadowmancer

    Sadowmancer Controller of Misery

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    I think you need to stop playing customs. No good player stacks health. They use diverse items to get an advantage.
     
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  8. atmsx

    atmsx Member

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    Lets pretend that there is this optimum build for a specific set of opponents where you play a specific set of plays where your health and damage balance is just "right". And you don't have this just right build so you are losing statistically. You want to counter this by introducing an item that will beat this "health build" which would raise the question now of why build health in the first place if you can counter it? Which then raises the question of how you would counter this now awesome item which then leads to another item and on and on and on... So why not keep it simple. Health and damage. You choose how much of each you want and how you will coordinate with your team to best utilize your strength/weaknesses?
     
  9. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    None of the items you meantioned help get through health, they help get through defence. In most situations, as long as your enemy isn't distracted, if they have more health than you, they will win, no matter what offensive items you've built. As for the items I suggested, keep in mind that, if you're not attacking someone against whom you can proc the passive, the items themselves offer very little in the way of base stats, so they're only useful against high health enemies. Against lower health "squishy" enemies, you're going to feel the lack of better combat stats that the regular damage items provide. Also, last but not least, as I mentioned in my post, the items can be changed around a little to ensure they're balanced (I'm no balancing expert), but some form of them does need to be added into the game. Every other MOBA that I know of has some form of %max health damage option in their items, and HOC needs something like that too.
     
  10. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    No one builds 6 Stirring Souls, but most people are still able to get quite a lot of health into their builds, from their defensive purchases.

    Also, I don't play customs. This is a forum for discussion, there's no need to flame people.
     
  11. Sadowmancer

    Sadowmancer Controller of Misery

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    -All damage items get through heath. -And what you're saying if they have more health than you they win is completely wrong.
    Tanks build hades, SSOD, Chain, valkyrian, herm, and zealots. That's around 3k health boost. With jade and long bow any adc can burn through it. I'm not flaming you. I just think it's dumb you think if an enemy has higher health they automatically win.
     
  12. atmsx

    atmsx Member

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    We techniquely do. The storm cloak offers a max health percentage base magic damage. Also, healing is more effective on lower health heroes since most heals are not max health based. So having massive health and little damage does not help you very much. Also, the only reason you really build health is for 2 things. You plan on tanking and you know you will get hit and you don't want to die so you buy health. Or two, you need health so that you have a breathing room to react to sudden catastrophes that causes you to die in a blink of an eye.

    What do these reasons have in common? They depend on how you plan on playing. Health itself doesn't make you op, its how you use it effectively like any other stats such as damage. You build full damage but you spend more time running then hitting helps no one. Building health just to have everyone ignore hitting you helps no one.
     
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  13. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    The whole idea behind these items is that, if they can be balanced right, they will prevent health stacking from being oppressive, while still ensuring that it has a place in the game, and without being too strong as standalone items. The idea is that it would allow for the kind of "rock, paper, scissors" dynamic that game developers strive for when trying to balance a game. If your opponent is building a lot of health, you can use one of the potential items I proposed. If your opponent is using one of those proposed items, you can focus more on damage, to take advantage of the items lower stats against low health targets. And if your opponent is focusing on damage, then you can stack health. Also, these proposed items would discourage users from building too much health, because it would make it harder for them to trigger the passive, against most enemies, thus ensuring that there is a downside to them as well.
     
  14. Entropy

    Entropy Well-Known Member

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    Not true, there is actually a magical item that damg base on target max hp.
     
  15. crash_lord

    crash_lord Retired

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    Stacking health eh? U must be playin on train map right?

    If u hate it so much, then play on rift map or 3s map
     
  16. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    The thing is, damage items don't provide anywhere near as much damage as their defensive counterparts give in health. A large majority of the defensive items available provide at least 500 health. The most you can get from any single damage item (with the exception of the Boneflame Wand) is around 100 damage. That's the problem. Damage items can't keep up with the health provided by defensive items. It only takes a couple of defensive items before a person has too much health for you to get through before they get through yours.
     
  17. Sadowmancer

    Sadowmancer Controller of Misery

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    Did you take account pierce? Critical rate? Extra critical damage? Fighter talents? If I recall there's a fighter talent that allows extra damage with percentage health.
     
  18. Entropy

    Entropy Well-Known Member

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    Building pure def or hp wont help you win the game, since enemy can just ignore you and attack the target they want. There is actually a formula for combat power.
    HP*(100+DEF)*DPS*R

    HP is the your max hp, DEF is your defense, DPS is damg per sec, R is ratio of the time you attack enemy and the time you taking damg. The higher the combat power, the more damg you can deal before you die, Building pure durability or DPS wont maximize your output. Also notice how R can multiplying your combat power, it depends on how good your team doing their CC and how good your kite to negect enemy damg. A good carry with good CC support can have a very high R value. Most of time, tank have R value greater than 1.
     
  19. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    Actually, the Storm Cloak only does current health damage, and its range is so short that it's very impractical for most mages to use. As for how you play, I agree that it does make a difference, but the problem is, with the right build, that takes advantage of the lack of %max health damage in the game, you can have enough health to survive a lot of damage, while still having enough damage yourself to kill anyone who tries to fight you, unless they've mirrored your build. So it doesn't really matter how you play, because you can't lose fights as long as your at least moderately competent.
     
  20. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    It's only 1% max health damage :/.
     

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