No counter for health stacking

Discussion in 'Nerfs and Buffs' started by Ranger74352, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    It only does current health damage, and it has a tiny range. :(
     
  2. atmsx

    atmsx Member

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    Yeah, assuming both players stand still and have a cowboy shootout.

    In actuality, whats actually going to happen?
    its a 2v2.
    Melina comes and freezes a target with the lowest health and highest damage potential. That targets teamates attempt to help by doing...damage? Melina's teamate elf comes and chain stuns the frozen target. the Combined might of the two overwhelms the cc'd target and he dies later. At this time, the dead guy's teamate with the nice and mighty health build almost has the elf killed but wait, he doesn't seem to have enough damage to kill elf quickly enough because he built health and not damage so elf escapes and melina slows the the health building guy who thinks its the one way road to victory. He ends up getting frozen again by melina. Elf sweeps by again and shoots and then chain stuns him. Wow, and the guy is still alive! well, who cares, elf and melina run back because this guy is unspeakably buffed up on health. Elf and Melina are alive and the other teamate is dead. If they built more health and less damage, do you think they would have managed to kill the first guy so quickly to prevent a active 2v2? nah, they knew their damage output and the time in which the fight would be in their favor so they quickly turned the fight into a 2v1.
     
  3. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    You're right, I should amend my post. I don't mean stacking nothing but health, I'm talking about build a little bit of damage, and then stacking health. It gives you enough damage to kill people reasonably quickly, but allows you to have enough hp to ensure that no one can kill you before you kill them, unless they've also built a lot of health.
     
  4. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    That's a pretty specific scenario, relying on a lot of what ifs, for Ihaelryna and Melinda to win, lol. Also, as I've been trying to clarify to everyone, I'm not talking about building pure health, I'm talking about people who build one or two damage items, and then stack tank items. They still have a fairly considerable amount of damage, but can't really be killed unless multiple people gang up on them.
     
  5. Sadowmancer

    Sadowmancer 屮 vιolenт тendencιeѕ 屮 Staff Member

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    You should've said that in your first post mate
     
  6. Entropy

    Entropy Well-Known Member

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    That is true, carry should always maximize his combat power rather than building pure dps. For tank though, you may want to build pure def, since it give your carry a high R value for longer time before you die.
     
  7. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    I know, I'm really starting to regret not being more specific :(. I just figured it would be obvious to anyone who read the post, due to common sense/game knowledge, since the it's such a common strategy to see. I did edit the original post though, so hopefully that should help clear everything up for future readers. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  8. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    There is value in that, but a carry shouldn't be forced to build a certain way just because it's the strongest build, and there's no counter to it. Carries who are good enough to use a full damage build should be able to do so, but they can't right now, because there's no way to kill heroes who have too much health quickly enough. They'll always kill you before you kill them, even when they have no help. It doesn't matter what offensive items you build, because none of them can get through all the health. Jade Axe and Longbow of Shadows help deal with defence, but there are no items to deal with health. It makes the game feel extremely limiting and frustrating.
     
  9. Sadowmancer

    Sadowmancer 屮 vιolenт тendencιeѕ 屮 Staff Member

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    You worded it wrong so no one knew what you are trying to say. It sounded like if a hero builds all hp they can't die.
     
  10. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    I know, I started realising that when I saw all the replies coming in :(. I'm so used to talking about stuff like this with my online friends that I kinda forgot I needed to explain everything from the beginning, if you know what I mean. Hey, do you think you could reread the original post and let me know if my editing made it a little clearer? If it's not too much trouble, that is.
     
  11. JukedBox

    JukedBox Active Member

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    Don't know what you're talking about. A physical damage carry doesn't need health items. Just need to make sure they know how to position properly. If enemies build defense early on, go for longbow after Jade Axe. If they stack HP, go for damage and crit items. If you have divinity sword in your end build, Hades Armor won't be able to kill you even if you didn't purchase extra HP.
     
  12. Entropy

    Entropy Well-Known Member

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    It is actually not as monotone as you thought. Building pure HP or pure DEF is not as good as building mixing with DEF and HP. A hero with HP and DEF build can survive longer than both pure HP or pure DEF build, and the ratio between your DEF item and HP is highly depends how high is enemy pierce and whether enemy have long bow or have skill that damg base on max hp. It is similar to maximize your DPS, building pure attack or pure attack speed, won't give you as high as DPS of mixing both.
    Item building servers as the base of your combat power, but more important is your teamwork and how good you position yourself. With good teamwork and kiting, R value can multiplying by several folds.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  13. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    I agree, Hades Armour alone isn't a problem, which is why the items I proposed in my original post aren't designed to work against someone who only has Hades Armour. The problem is that a lot of people will build things like Stirring Soul and Zealot's Horn on top of Hades Armour, and there's just no way to get through that much health before they kill you.
     
  14. Jaye

    Jaye Member

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    I stack HP haha, desecration with all HP inscriptions I literally reach 1.5k at level 7 which is a lot for its level, although abundant in HP I am still lacking other stats such as def and atk, I have been in many situation where I was effortlessly solod despite huge HP advantage, this is solely because I still lack the ability to not take 500 dmg in just 2 seconds. The health stacking seems balanced to me, although it does give Heroes who have built in HP buffs a serious advantage such as Valox, Golem, Helm, and Seake, but it still doesn't mean that they are "Unkillable" don't just go in guns blazing expecting to have an easy fight, have better judgment on the player and casually check on their build so you have a better understanding if it would be wise to engage or not.
     
  15. 33heatwave45

    33heatwave45 Active Member

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    I don't really notice a health stacking problem in general, only for a few heroes. Other than tanks (in which case, I expect them to have a ton of HP and DEF), Harvester, Archimitros, Akartu, and Sia.

    Sia and Horse need high hp because they have to go all in frequently and outlast the enemy, so that really just leaves Akartu and Harvester as the only ones I see truly benefiting from health stacking.
     
  16. Riley12301

    Riley12301 Gambler :D Staff Member

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    I can see what this guy is talking about in certain circumstances. I am a fighter/mage main player by nature, I do not play bruisers or tanks hardly at all. The types of heroes I find to be frankly unkillable mid/late game are heroes like jombraa, and seake/12b/valox etc... those tanks end up being really strong and can take so much damage with their 5k hp and max defenses. But while they are also really tanky, they all pack a decent whallop and a good player can carry the whole team with one of these heroes.

    I'll describe a game I played yesterday as an example, this jombraa was frankly unkillable even though I was fed so much (10 kills, 1-2 deaths) and I was playing debronee. I would use my judgement/intensify/blink in skill/ultimate, all his damaging moves and Jom would kill me quite easily after I was only able to maybe take a 1/4 of his hp. And this was mid-late game, levels 10-13. He was maybe a level or 2 ahead from farming and he could take on our whole team with his aoe damage and sheer tankiness.

    Maybe not the same items this guy proposed, cause those sound op in general to me.
    Next post I'll include some numbers I think sound balanced.
     
  17. Riley12301

    Riley12301 Gambler :D Staff Member

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    These new items I would propose:

    •Physical %Max Health Item:
    +40% attack speed
    +35 physical attack
    +15% harvest HP
    -Passive (Unique): When attacking a hero, if your normal physical attack is dealing less than 75% of its original damage, your attack will deal additional physical damage equal to 3% of the target's max health. (Effect only lasts for the next 10 normal attacks). Refreshes every 20 seconds after running out of boosted attacks.
    *Cost: 3700 Gold
    *Build: Wings of Paradise + blackpool scythe
    (This item is very similar to cutlass, but it provides harvest hp, and the effect of %hp damage)

    •Magical %Max Health Item:
    +80 Magical attack
    -10% CD
    -Passive (Unique): When attacking a hero, if your skills deal less than 75% of their original damage, the enemy will take additional magical damage equal to 15% of their max health. AoE spells apply 50% of these effects, but DoT spells cannot apply these effects at all. After initial use, cannot be used again. Refreshes every 10 seconds.
    -Passive (Unique): Pierce through enemies' magical defense (20)
    *Cost: 3700 Gold
    *Build: Brawler's Lament + Leviathans Cloak.

    So what do you guys think?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  18. Entropy

    Entropy Well-Known Member

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    Original damage means damage without defense? If that is the case, any target with def higher than 32 will sure poke the effect, and 3% max hp*10 normal attack in 20 sec. Suppose the target have 4000 hp , that is 4000*3%*10/20=60 additional dps. But in real fight, it will be hardly last for 20 sec, consider the attack speed of your hero is 2 hit/sec, then the additioanl dps will be 240. Sounds really alot. The magic item even sounds more OP, 15% instance max hp damg for every 10 sec. And both of them looks so cheap.
     
  19. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    As I've been trying to clarify to other readers of my post, I'm not talking about players who only build health, I'm talking about players who build a little bit of damage, and then stack defensive items. They still have just enough damage to kill you reasonably quickly, but they have so much hp that you'll never be able to get through it all before they kill you. That's the problem.
     
  20. Ranger74352

    Ranger74352 Member

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    There are actually a lot more heroes who stack health than that. Just about any hero with good consistent damage output can stack health after building a couple damage items, and they will become impossible to deal with alone.
     

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